Karen Wyatt, MD: 7 Lessons From The Dying
The broken heart is like the portal where so much of this life energy and love and creativity can flow into you and begin to flow through your life. And so, being able to hold open that broken part of you and be vulnerable and sit with it. And even though it feels frightening and scary, but to sit with it and know this is the right thing. – Karen Wyatt
Johanna Lunn
This is the When You Die podcast. If it has to do with death and dying, we’re talking about it. I’m your host today, Johanna Lunn.
I’m delighted to introduce a very special guest today. As a hospice physician, Dr. Karen Wyatt has been widely recognized for her compassionate presence with patients and her deep understanding of the spiritual aspect of health, illness, and dying. After the suicide of her father, she spent years studying spiritual wisdom, while listening to the stories of her hospice patients. From the depths of her own broken heart, she found a path to transformation that changed how she practiced medicine, and how she lives her own life. She is the author of many books and hosts the very popular End of Life University podcast, where she shares her personal insight and wisdom for living life fully and interviews experts from various fields on death, dying and grief. Welcome, I am so grateful that you have the time to talk to me today.
Karen Wyatt, MD
Oh, thank you so much, Johanna. It’s a pleasure to be here.
JL
There’s so many ways that we could begin. For a long time, I had a slogan over my computer that said, “Work is love made visible.” And I would say that that is really you. And what you’re doing is working with your life stream and your experiences to really share love. And I feel that, and I’m grateful for it. So, thank God.
KW
Thank you. That touches my heart, because back when I was 16 years old, I had an epiphany way back then that the purpose of my life was to learn about love and to learn how to give love and receive love. And so, I’ve kind of been drawn by that for my whole life. So that touches me that that maybe that’s actually happening.
JL
We can see it. We can see. Yeah, isn’t it interesting how sometimes when we are young, we have these deep insights. And then you go through that kind of period of forgetfulness, sort of called your 20s, teenage and 20s, and then kind of come back around. And this is something around end of life, as well about making meaning of our lives and how important that is and how that can come at every step. And not just when you get a diagnosis.
KW
That’s so very true. And that ends up being really the work of our lives, is figuring out how do we continue to grow in love, even when we’re suffering and even when there’s pain.
JL
And that, of course, brings us directly to this absolutely beautiful, book, Seven Lessons for Living from the Dying, which is a little bit of a deceiving title. I mean, it’s a truthful title, but the thing that’s deceiving is you think, “Oh, this is about dying.” But it’s actually about living. And when we talk about how do we make dying easier for people? How do we improve our health care and our quality care around patients? Seems like it just comes back to us, doesn’t it?
KW
Yeah, it’s so true. It’s really about each one of us being on our own journey and figuring how do I become the best person I can be? Live the best life that’s possible, given who I am and what my circumstances are, and just bring love into the world wherever I can.
JL
And boy, does this world ever need love right now. We constantly are facing change and suffering in the course of our lives. It happens every day, day to day, and whether it’s in the natural world where the seasons change. Here in Nova Scotia, we’re going through labor pains to bring spring but it’s always a hard one here, where the winter comes with these big winds and sleet and snow and plummeting, freezing temperatures. And then the next day it’s warm. We know it’s spring because this battle is going on. But in so many ways this change and uncertainty is happening all the time. But you name it. It’s your number one lesson in this book is to embrace suffering. And why is that a good idea?
KW
Well, you know, I’ll start by talking about, you mentioned my father’s death by suicide was what propelled me to start working for hospice, because I was struggling so much with my grief after his death, and I was a doctor already and actually a doctor who had believed that love is what heals, and back to my 16-year-old self. If I can just love people enough, then I can take their pain away. I can heal people. Love is the antidote to pain. And my father’s death was just shattering, because he’s one of the people I love the most in my life. It shattered that whole belief system. Like, well, obviously, just loving someone doesn’t work, didn’t heal my father – I couldn’t save him. And so, I ended up going into hospice, partly to figure out how do I live with all this grief. And from these patients who were themselves dealing with their own grief, and dealing with the dying process, I had this epiphany that, “Oh, my goodness, love isn’t the antidote to pain. Love and pain go hand in hand. And pain actually deepens us so that we can hold more love.” And that’s what I’ve been missing before. Until I felt that deep pain of grief, I wasn’t aware of that I had kind of a naive, idealistic vision of what love offered us. So, for me, personally, I had to start at that place of suffering, of going deep into the pain, because that’s where I first sort of broke away all the pretenses and all the false ideas I’ve been living under, so that I could really dig in and start to learn about love, love so deep that it hurts as we’re loving. I think we have to start at that place of our pain. Because if we try to start anywhere else, we try to start, which I had done, I tried to start by loving, or I used to try to start being present in the present moment. But you also can’t start there. If you haven’t done this hard, deep work, going into your own pain and suffering first. And then emerging from that with so much more capacity for bringing love to your life.
JL
I love that word, capacity, having the capacity to bear the present, be there as whatever is happening, both joyful and not. I have to just kind of go back a little bit and say that we’re afraid of suffering. We’re afraid of our pain. We do everything possible in this culture to avoid it. And so, when someone says to go into the pain, and there’s nothing like a loss like yours, few things are any worse than that. Honestly, I can’t think of any. That sounds terrifying.
KW
It’s why we are where we are with end-of-life care, because we’re so afraid of even talking or thinking about potential suffering, or what might be coming in the future that we just try to avoid it all. But I recognized in those the first three years of my grieving process, all I wanted was to go back in time. I wanted everything to go back to the way it was before my father died. And that was my denial of the pain. I just wanted to eliminate the pain and not have to be living with it. And every day, I would think that I’d wake up and think it didn’t happen today. But maybe tomorrow I’ll wake up and I’ll feel just like I felt before he died. I finally realized, like, that’s making me insane, because I’m trying to hold onto, trying to make something happen that can’t happen. They can’t, we cannot ever go backwards. And as soon as I finally let go of that, and just said, I just, I just have to be here. and I, for me working in hospice was how I faced the pain, and walked right into the pain, because I willingly sat with families and patients at the bedside and listened to their stories and shared in their pain. And that was the thing that made all the difference, that transformed my whole grieving process.
JL
And there are so many extraordinary stories that you share in this book too, and what you are able to bear witness to and support in people’s ability to tell you their stories, because we never know who feels safe to talk to right? This mostly honorable time. So, you really became a wisdom keeper of all of these very beautiful and moving stories.,
KW
To my great honor and a great privilege to be able to come into people’s homes and be with them at this time in their lives. And it was all so synchronistic in so many ways. I would get a call to go see someone and it would turn out to be just at exactly the right time. And I just knew it when I walked in the door like oh, this was where I’m meant to be right now. And it’s what they need, and it’s what I need, and I will just be here and be present. Most of the time, I had no idea like what will happen, what am I? What’s going on and what will I learn and what, what is this about? I didn’t even see any of these seven lessons emerging until later. It took me several years. I wrote in my journal every day and took a lot of notes and wrote things down that I was learning. But it was several years later, when I looked back and thought, oh, there are these themes that keep running through all these stories. I see them over and over again. And those are all the things that I’m trying to learn in my, on my own spiritual path. So, it showed me that really dying is, it’s this incredible spiritual teacher for us, that’s pulling us always to become our best selves and to grow as much as we can, while we still have life left in our bodies.
JL
And the interesting thing about sort of suffering being that first lesson is that I know in my own grief journey from my mother’s death, and, and others, that there is tremendous energy there, that when you really touch into that suffering, and face it, there’s a lot of energy. And in that sense, it’s also incredibly creative. Now, when someone’s in the middle of a grief journey and suffering, you can’t say, this is the most creative period of your life.
KW
Exactly.
JL
Because they might just slap you or something. But I know from my own experience, it’s really true that if we can lean into that suffering, and it’s like validating your own experience, which is an incredible kindness to yourself, when you can say, well, of course, of course, this is terrible. This is awful, and mother yourself. And then I think that you use the Christ on the cross. And his final words, I think it was thirst. And the way that you describe that was like a gourd like that the squash had been hollowed out, and it was a gourd for filling. I practically cried when I read that, just because I thought that felt so right. That was kind of the well.
KW
Yes. And I liked the image, as well of, say, a violin that has to be carved out of wood and has to be hollow inside. You have to carve it empty inside before it can make music. The only way music flows from it is if it’s hollow inside. So, I remind myself of that all the time, like this process of life, it’s just hollowing all of us out. And we don’t like it, and we resist it. And we would like to avoid it if we can. But the end result is that we will be able to make beautiful music if we allow that to happen.
JL
Oh, that’s so good. I love that too. Yeah, yeah. And many wisdom traditions would say that when you can rest in your own broken heart. Some Buddhist traditions, they talk about it as the pigeon heart, this little beating pigeon heart. So, so buried in this little body and when you can touch in with that tender, broken heart, that that’s where a kind of magic starts, doesn’t it?
KW
Yes, so very true. Because that’s actually, that’s almost like the broken heart is like the portal where so much of this life energy and love and creativity can flow into you and begin to flow through your life. And so being able to hold open that broken part of you and be vulnerable and sit with it. And he and even though it feels frightening and scary, but to sit with it and know this is the right thing. That’s that’s the right thing that I’m here with this pain and this fear right now.
JL
And that’s how you came to hospice.
KW
Yes, it was interesting, because I’ve been struggling with my grief as a family practice doctor. And when my dad died by suicide, and I struggled with my grief for about three years just and I just had no idea like how am I am I going to spend I’m going to spend my whole life feeling this way feeling devastated and never smiling again and never feeling joy again. And I was a mom with two little children. And I just I just threw up my hands one day and said I don’t know what to do. I don’t know how I can, how to carry on living like this with this grief. I heard a voice in my head it was my intuition saying call hospice. And at that time, I didn’t really know very much about hospice as in my medical training, I hadn’t done any work with hospice and didn’t really know except I knew it had something to do with death and dying. I ended up finding out that we handle hospice in our community, which I also didn’t even know that we had wanted. I called him and just asked, Do you ever use volunteers? Is there a way I could volunteer with you? I feel like I need to work with you. And I’m a doctor. And they told me, Oh, our medical director just resigned 30 minutes ago. We could use you; you could be our medical director. I was like, What? What is this and what what just happened? So instantly, I knew like, that’s what I’m meant to do. That’s what the voice was about. So that’s how I got involved with it. And it changed everything in my life, obviously.
JL
What an amazing synchronicity. Honestly, that is, that’s amazing.
KW
Yeah, it still makes me laugh as just one of those stories of sometimes how life works out. And we, we find ourselves in the right situation by the oddest pathways we could never have predicted. That’s really true. I love that. I love that.
JL
We can’t really control our lives. But we can have intention.
KW
Yes, yes.
JL
And I wonder, you know, for someone who picks up this book, which I have to just tell all of our listeners that it’s more than a book, it’s a guide, it’s a teacher, it’s a workbook. It’s such an amazing resource for living. It’s got everything in it, everything to launch us, as humans in this world, this crazy world that we live in on how to be we try so hard to change the external world. But we have to change ourself. And so, this is a really beautiful and grounded way of doing that. And I think that when we do enter into this journey with you that synchronicities start happening, that would be my guess.
KW
Yes, I think that’s very, very true. And for me, like that’s been my whole life of just as long as I can stay, stay in this place, stay in the present moment. There are synchronicities all the time. And it always amazes me when they occur, and then I really that’s how I realize, okay, good. I’m in the right place. I’m in the flow right now.
JL
Yeah, we do have to listen, don’t we.
KW
Yes, definitely.
JL
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I did a whole film about forgiveness. It was talking with people who like yourself, the world was shattered, but only in this case, it was by murder. fairly heavy that way. But I wanted to think what is the worst thing that can happen? And can you work with forgiveness? How does all of that work? Your story is pretty extreme for a lot of people, because although suicide is definitely on the increase, which is really very sad, but most people won’t have that experience, or they won’t have a loved one murdered. But in the process of kind of looking into forgiveness. Again, I realized that it always came back that you’d have to forgive yourself first. And I’m wondering for you, how did that work?
KW
That’s really been an ongoing part of my journey. Since my dad died, the forgiveness. For a long time, I didn’t recognize that I had some anger toward my dad, for taking his own life. And I, I felt wrong for feeling angry at him. He was suffering so much, it would be horrible for me to be angry at him. But I had to allow myself to see the devastation that it created for our whole family, and that it was a natural reaction, to have some anger and to need to forgive my dad, but much deeper than that, as you said, forgiving myself because, once again, I’m the doctor who practices love and teaches everyone about love. And then I can’t as I said, I can’t save my father who dies by suicide. And where did I go wrong? Why couldn’t I love him into health and love him into wanting to live and that tormented me for such a long time? feeling guilt over it feeling inadequate? Maybe it’s none of this is true. Maybe it’s not real. Maybe I’m just not good at it. But maybe I’m not good enough. So, that self-forgiveness? That’s actually been an ongoing process over the years for me to continue to work on.
JL
It’s true, you know, you think, Oh, I got that one. Now I can check it off. We’re constantly changing and evolving, right? I’m really interested in continuing bonds. When I was 19, and had all of these losses, everyone was like, you have to get over it. Like that was the way to deal with it, you just get over it. Like that’s even possible, right? But it was kind of the way we were raised, too, like by Dr. Spock, and kids just cry it out in the other room, and you’re supposed to be the mother ignoring it. I don’t know how my mother did that. That must have been sheer torture. But the idea that life is this journey, right, that we’re on. And so, when we lose someone, like my mother is an example, is that I’ve never lost her, really. I mean, she’s gone. She’s not been there for my whole life, really. But I’ve remained in relationship to her. And I feel like all these layers of myself and forgiveness are also like that, too, is that I’m always finding different aspects of things to release or forgive or move into.
KW
Yeah, from somewhere I read this image of unforgiveness is like a ball of tangled thread. I like that because you can untangle one piece of thread, but there’s still a ball of thread there. So, you know, I keep on tangling, and and untangling. But there’s more and more work to do, there’s always still work to do in the tangles. And just like you said, you may think you check off a box for a moment, but that’s only because you haven’t seen how many other how many other tangles, there are yet to that you have to delve into and work on with forgiveness. But I love what you said about continuing bonds, that that’s really what I had to rediscover my continuing bond with my dad. And so, I had to forgive him and to realize actually, like the bond I can have with my dad and loving my dad now is pure, and it can be kind of free of some of those trappings and the pain and the worry about him and his suffering. Like I can, my continuing bond with him is with his deep soul and all the things that I connected with so deeply with him. That’s where my bond lies. And that’s rich and strong. And it’s a joy in a way I get to be free of of all the other worries and all the other negative things that happened during that time, now. I can, I can set those aside. I can at least gradually be untangling them, you know, and let me lay them aside.
JL
Grief is always with us really, in some way. Of course, there’s no other grief greater than losing ones that we love. I know in the town I live in that we’re in the middle of tearing down all the old historic buildings and building really large apartment buildings to house all the people. There’s a housing shortage. And I’m watching the small city being completely remade. And it reminds me of for a short time I lived in Boston, and I was walking down the street in Boston at Copley Place. And this little old woman was just standing there kind of confused. And I walked up to her, and I said, Can I help you? And she said, it’s gone. I said what? She said, the building is gone. And now I don’t know where I am. Oh, and it’s it’s kind of like I’m sort of witnessing her experience of this transformation. And it’s just cities do this. It’s like life does this from my daughter’s point of view. She said, Well, Mom, it’s about time. Like, I liked those houses. And then for this woman, she was utterly lost without the reference point. She’s trying to get someplace, and she knew if she got around here, she would see something. And that’s just the small things, not the big things of displacement, losing your home altogether. Being in a foreign country, or having your hometown completely transformed by people you don’t even know. All of these changes that are so, so big and I feel like these, these steps of grief and working with the grief, give us more resilience, like you were talking about, more capacity.
KW
Yeah, it’s so true. That’s so profound in a way that statement of, Now I don’t know where I am. Because that’s exactly what grief feels like those first moments, I mean, first years, maybe decades of grief, like, now I don’t know where I am. Because something is gone that I counted on that I anchored myself on that I identified with, that’s really a touching story to hear. You’re right. If we can acknowledge all the smaller losses that are happening around us all the time in life and just become aware of it. I’m a grandmother and I was seeing my 18-month-old granddaughter, just yesterday, my, my daughter-in-law was saying, she doesn’t say this anymore. She learned the actual word now. And we’re going, Oh, I miss that. I miss the baby talk; I miss the gibberish. Now she knows the real word. So, she doesn’t say her little substitute word anymore. And like, we grow, and we change, and then we have to let go in the process.
JL
I know exactly what you’re talking about. It’s so sweet. I love fresh mind. The babies, they’re just seeing everything new. Everything new. But isn’t that also a bit like being in the moment, being present here? And we can’t help our cascading brain that immediately a bird flies back and in front of you and you go, “Crow.” You know, it’s hard to stop that cascading labeling business. But slowing down. And being present in the moment is a big gift in that direction.
KW
So true. First of all, I was amazed by my patients at the end of life, there are some of them, this ability to just enjoy every single moment in the present, because it was all coming to an end that their days were numbered, and realizing that’s how we should all be living every day, in a sense of like, savor everything, enjoy it to the fullest. And don’t take it for granted. So that was a really powerful lesson. When I combined that with learning about forgiveness, I realized one reason I wasn’t able to be fully attentive in the present moment is because I had so much energy clinging in the past, ruminating about things that happened in the past that I hadn’t forgiven yet. And as soon as I started trying to let go and forgive the past, suddenly, I had a lot more bandwidth for the present moment. And I could, I could get more enjoyment out of it.
JL
Well said. Yeah, that’s, that’s wonderful. It’s like being held hostage, right?
KW
Mm hmm. Yeah, by something that’s already over with, that you’re not going to change. Or by rethinking it, you’re not going to change it by hanging on to it and going over it again and again.
JL
Well, it is almost funny. Really. I mean, you could have a sense of humor about that on some level, you know?
KW
Definitely, definitely. Like what, why do I spend 10 years with this on my mind?
JL
Oh, silly girl. There you go again. Yeah, lessons. I love how life is encapsulated. Right there in the deathbed.
KW
Yeah, so very true. And when you have that moment that you can stop and really sit down and listen to patients and hear their stories, you can see it, you can see it unfolding before you in a way, see how they’re addressing their lives, and how they’ve lived, and how they want to live differently, even if they only have a few days. How this kind of the new eyes that they have for looking at life now when it’s at the very end. And that, for me has been just really profound to hear those stories.
JL
I’m just curious, too, attending to people end of life. Not all families are happy families. And I’m wondering how in fraught situations, how these lessons have have helped you as a caregiver?
KW
Well, these lessons helped me to go into my own calm center in a way and really strengthen that part of myself: the ability to just come in, as like a big container of calmness into the most anxious or angry situation. And it’s amazing what bringing in a presence like that can do to help family members. And sometimes I would almost always start with the patient by just sitting alone with the patient so I could understand what is the patient’s concern? And what did they need? And what is the most important thing for them on this journey that they’re thinking about? And then I see all around me, what’s happening around me, conflicts going on and anxiety in the family. But when I understand what the patient needs, and wants, then sometimes I would take that information, and then sit down with the family, and just explain to them that this is where your loved one is right now and what they’re focusing on. What could you do to help support that journey? And how could you focus yourself on their journey, because sometimes that really helps them get out of their own heads. And also, the reason they’re conflicting is because they’re spiraling with all their own fear, and their own grief that they can’t express. Once again, just being able to be a calm person, in the midst of, of chaos, actually can change everything, it’s as if spreading these ripples of, of calmness, and I found so often families would just sit down and talk and just share their feelings. And I’d see them understanding each other and forgiving each other in ways they hadn’t been able to before. When you can just help them feel safe in that moment.
JL
Oh, that’s so beautiful. That is really, really beautiful. Because that’s got to be the most challenging thing for you, as a doctor or any, anyone who is working in end of life to, to have to deal with.
KW
I often talk to our staff about this, that sometimes part of the role we play, that we may become a target for family members to take their anger out on, but that we are doing them a service, if we can let them have that for a while, they may need that. Because that may be what brings them together is that they’re all angry, they’re all angry at one of us because of something that happened. And that if we can just recognize that for what it is like, they need a repository for all of this angst and emotion that they have. And if, if we can allow them to ventilate that toward us, without taking it personally, understanding this is this is how they’re getting through the situation right now, and we support each other one another to say, we’re doing okay, we’re doing a great job, but they’re hurting. And this is how they’re behaving in their, in their hurt that sometimes, by doing that, and not escalating, not escalating the negative feelings, but just allowing them to express what they feel, we get past that. And suddenly, suddenly, they think we’re the best hospice they’ve ever dealt with. And suddenly they get past the negativity, but we’ve given them the opportunity to ventilate it.
JL
And that means that you’ve got a really good team, that you can talk about these things with. That seems really critical to support one another. Because there’s a big, I don’t wanna say burden of being there, it’s maybe a gift, but it’s a, it’s a heavy thing.
KW
Yeah. And I think it’s essential for all of the hospice team to be really well versed in, in all the ways that grief and pain can manifest for families and for patients too, so that they can recognize what’s going on, not take it on personally, and then be able to share it with, with the rest of the staff and we and, and support one another. So, we all need to keep educating each other about this was what I saw. This is the story of what happened with one patient and what I experienced so that we’re constantly learning and gathering more and more tools and more resilience, like you said, for being in these challenging situations.
JL
How lucky to be on your team.
KW
It was such a profound experience. For all of us. It always felt like wow, we get the right patients at the right time. And we have the right staff at the right time. And we’re all amazed every day. Like I can’t believe this happened. I can’t believe that I just heard this. I just learned this. I just saw this for the first time and I, I understand it now. And just really profound.
JL
That’s beautiful. That’s beautiful. And I know we’re kind of running up against time here. I’m just curious if there is a story that you could share with us. Maybe one of those stories that was really meaningful to you early on in your journey.
KW
So many, so many but I guess one of my, my favorite patients was in this and he’s in the book, a man who had been really a vagrant, kind of homeless vagrant for most of his life who had had drug and alcohol problems, who came on our service when he had renal cancer and wasn’t a candidate for any kind of treatment or dialysis or anything. And he was in renal failure. And he came on our service, they told us he had about two weeks to live. And he was a charity case. So, we knew like we won’t get paid for taking care of him, but we just want to support him. And this patient it turned out, as we came to visit him, he had started drawing in a spiral notebook with just a number to lead pencil drawing pictures of things he had seen in his days. He’d ridden the rails, like ridden trains across the country, just hopped on trains. So, he’d been to lots of different places and seeing places from the trains never really had a home or a place to live. Until he was given this little apartment to use at the very end of his life. H started drawing pictures of things he had seen. And it turned out, he was an incredible artist, and he’d never drawn before in his life. His drawings were beautiful, and I couldn’t even believe he could do this with a number two pencil, the shadings. He did the depth perception, you know, in his drawings. In a spiral notebook, it was just phenomenal. And the staff was fascinated. Everyone loved going to visit to see what he had drawn and started bringing him sketch pads and charcoal pencils and various things. He could use colored pencils for his drawings. Until one day we realized, oh, wait a minute, he’s been on our service for two months. They told us he would only live for two weeks. Like what’s going on. And we’ve got blood tests and his kidney function, that actually improved. He was still terminal. But we knew like somehow this man has been given this little extra gift of extra days now that he discovered that he’s an artist, for the first time in his whole life. He had like this purpose; he had this talent. So, we supported him, he ended up living a year. And he drew the entire time drew pictures the whole time; taped them up on his wall with scotch tape, so you could see them every day. And that story still inspires me to remember, everyone, everyone has some amazing spark within them. And some people don’t get a chance in their lives to discover that, and that if we can just spend an extra moment with people hearing their story, looking into their eyes and listening to them. That spark may come to life for them just to realize that spark alone kept him alive for a year when we thought he would die in two weeks. And it’s just that life wasn’t done yet. Of life had some, there was something else for him to accomplish doing these drawings. It was a tender, sweet, beautiful story for me that reminded me never overlook any person in any circumstance. The beautiful creativity in every single soul that we encounter.
JL
That is such a beautiful story. Truly, truly. And he was safe. And he was loved. Yes. Maybe for the first time in his whole life.
KW
Yeah, yeah. And it turned out he, he got to know people in his little apartment building, who fell in love with him, too. We didn’t realize that was happening when we were caring for him. But in the end, he had this little community who showed up. We had a little funeral for him after he died. And like a dozen people from his apartment building came to his little funeral. And it was like, Wow, this man, who his whole life had never wanted people, had stayed isolated, never needed other humans in his life, suddenly, he got gifted this little community of a little family around him at the very end.
JL
Oh, that’s so beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. Karen, how can people find you?
KW
Well, it’s easiest to go to the, the website, eoluniversity.com. And my books are there are, the podcasts link is there too if people want to find out about the podcast, so that’s where most of the information is contained. eoluniversity.com.
JL
That’s great. And we will put it in the description too. So, people have double ways of catching it. Thank you so much for taking this time with me. I just love what you’re doing.
KW
Thank you. It’s been really fun to get to answer the questions this time, instead of asking them. So, thank you. I appreciate it.
JL
This conversation is brought to you by the When You Die project. From existential afterlife questions to palliative care and the nuts and bolts of green burial. If it has to do with death, we’re talking about it. whenyoudie.org.
