When You Die Podcast with Olivia Bareham
… if dying is a verb, then it’s something that we can do. And we can either do it well, or we can do it poorly. And so, if that’s the case, then there must be a pathway to learning how to do it well. And that puts one in a place of humility, I think. I want my dying to be as well or as good as humanly possible. So, show me how to do that. What do I need to awaken, to let go of, be aware of, to make my dying be as good as possible. – Olivia Bareham
Johanna Lunn
This is the When You Die podcast. If it has to do with death and dying, we’re talking about it. I’m your host today, Johanna Lunn.
With me today is Olivia Bareham, an ordained interfaith minister, a certified death midwife, home funeral guide, funeral celebrant, and a pioneer advocate for conscious dying. She is founder of the Sacred Crossings Institute which offers classes and workshops and end-of-life preparedness, as well as death doula and death midwife certificate training programs. She is also co-founder of Sacred Crossings Alternative Funeral Home, serving the greater Los Angeles, California area. They offer a complete range of funeral services, including home funerals, green burials, burials at sea, cremations, and funeral celebrant services. Olivia is also one of the stars of our documentary Saying Goodbye, Preparing for Death, which is being released now, and is part of the When You Die trilogy. Olivia, thank you so much for being with me today. And I have to say, I’ve been so excited to talk to you, because there’s a lot going on right now.
Oliva Bareham
Thank you, Johanna. It’s a pleasure to be here. Really, thank you for these beautiful films. So important.
JL
Thank you, thank you. When we were talking a little before we started recording, I think that it ties in with this wonderful quote from Steven Jenkins that I know you have on your website. It is one that has sat on my desk for a long time. “Dying is not something that happens to you. Dying is something that you do.” And it seems to me like that is something we don’t get so much in our culture right now, that death is a process, it is a human process. And through it, in some ways, we discover ourselves.
OB
This is very true. And I particularly like that quote, because if dying is a verb, then it’s something that we can do. And we can either do it well, or we can do it poorly. And so, if that’s the case, then there must be a pathway to learning how to do it well. And that puts one in a place of humility, I think. I want my dying to be as well or as good as humanly possible. So, show me how to do that. What do I need to awaken to let go of, to be aware of, to make my dying be as good as possible. And the flip side of that is letting it happen to you equals being a victim of this event that’s inevitable somewhere in the future. But what a horrible way to live your life, as though at some point you’re going to be a victim of death. So, I love the way that this begins to turn our perspective inward. I’m going to claim responsibility for my dying. What do I need to do? Show me how.
JL
Don’t you think that it helps, the contemplation of dying before you die? You can die before you die in a certain way?
OB
Absolutely. I think it’s a lifelong task. And thinking about our dying should begin perhaps as early as teenagers. I think we should allow children to be children. That is not necessarily something that they need to have in their awareness, but definitely it should be in every high school curriculum, the death class. It’s been in, through, and around me every single day for at least the last 40 years. And it not only informs me, but it empowers me, it uplifts me, and inspires me. It has helped me come to my senses in a much more acute way than was ever possible while I was just living my life and doing what popped up in front of me. Not to say that I still don’t do that. But the information I carry now is tinged with the transitory nature of everything. So, it actually gives it a lot more intensity and sparkle and depth.
JL
I love that you mentioned young people, because their pet hamster will die. And our beloved companion animals of all stripes will most likely pass, and that happens when children are young as well as throughout the course of our life. If you’re like me, I’ve had dogs all my life, which means I’ve had many dear, dear friends, starting at a young age, leave me. And so, how you frame that, from the very beginning, could be really helpful in the course of a human life.
OB
Yes. And these conversations need to start right at that moment where you see a roadkill. Let that be an opportunity to have a conversation, rather than just, “Oh dear, he died. On you go.” We skim over this particular topic so quickly, when it’s an invitation to get really down there and touch into the divine. Really, that’s what it is. Every death is like going to church, no matter what your belief or religion is. It’s an invitation to go there.
JL
Again, before we started recording, you were talking a little bit about AI and the difference between being a mind-only functional thinker versus being truly human, and the big confusion that we might have, since our society has valued, so much, our logical materialistic kind of thinking. And we don’t really encourage or support or develop as much, at least we haven’t, other faculties that are available to us. The kind of movement towards meditation and somatic disciplines like yoga, and Tai Chi. Things like that are contrary to that. But overall, we like logic. Where do we get it right? And where do we get it wrong?
OB
Oh, it’s such a big topic, isn’t it? I feel like the big difference between us and AI is our ability to feel whatever that is. We can feel anger, rage, joy, disappointment, jealousy, sadness. And what I find most interesting is that very few people allow themselves to really feel the nuances of each of those feelings. And especially with death there’s grief, grief, incredible grief. What is grief? What is that feeling of grief? Where is it in my body? What is it doing to my body, my mind, my heart? And we don’t get the answers to that, unless we allow ourselves to completely feel it. And that is the invitation that this physical body is giving us; it’s that you can go to the depth of that feeling and let it change you. Whatever it is, even if it’s jealousy. That’s a really tricky feeling. It’s complicated. It’s twisted. But when you really let yourself feel it and don’t go to, “I shouldn’t feel that way,” that’s not really very spiritual. And that’s not very kind. As soon as we do that, we rob ourselves of a learning, of being able to change ourselves. But when you let yourself feel what jealousy does to you, how it changes and eats you, and the temperature of it and the tone of it, it is a gift of the other side. And the same with grief and horror. We have become numb, I think, as a people, as a humanity, to these feelings. But mostly because of the media entertainment, it’s thrown at us so often. Maybe the very first time you saw that image you were struck with horror, and your body wanted to resist it because it touched your heart. Then because the next image was flashed right behind it, you kind of had to put it somewhere and, “Oh, well. Wow.” And by the next day, it’s all gotten very dulled. And so, in that way, I feel like we’re becoming more artificial. We’ve gone into an analytical place about almost everything, especially violence. If you look at what’s available on the channels to watch, it’s so violent, every single one, even a movie that is trying to tell us about something so beautiful and open our hearts, like Avatar or one of those gorgeous movies. We are thrown into this unbelievable, torturous, violence. Why? Why is that thrown in front of me? It brings up horror for me that the person wanted to put that on film. It wasn’t necessary. But that’s just a taste of our everyday now. I think that has taken away some of our ability to drop into the depths of what it is to feel death and feel grief. And what that means. What does it mean that your mother died, she has gone where? For how many years she was at the other end of the phone. She was there for you 100%. She was entwined in everything you thought about, everything you did. And suddenly that is not available to you anymore. The grief, the change, the shock that goes along with that must be felt and allowed. And then you come up the other side, different, changed, more empowered, because of it. And people don’t realize that they intuit that going into the depth of that grief or horrible shame or whatever it is, is going to be so icky and painful, that they do anything possible to avoid going there. It could be an addiction, watch another movie, get busy, go to the gym, talk to somebody, whatever it is, other than feel. And we must understand what it is to go deep into the dark, to give yourself permission to, arms outstretched, just fall into it. Because it’s available. And because we’re human, just because of that, no other reason, trusting that you’ll come up the other side different. That, to me, is so exciting.
JL
Yes. And we have a culture that says we don’t like extreme emotions. We don’t like these extreme expressions, because it’s kind of scary. So, in a way, this an opportunity. By normalizing this conversation around death, taking some stigma away from it to create more of a safe space where we can have these experiences around our own terminal diagnosis may be rare. Really bringing death out of the closet in this way is an opportunity for us to shift the culture in a certain way. I don’t see any other leverage point where that might happen in society, because you can’t do it at work, exactly. You can’t do it on your first date. You can’t do it. You know, there’re all these places that it’s not acceptable.
OB
We are afraid. I think you’re right that because death happens to absolutely everything, everybody, every plant, every animal, everything. Everything dies, it’s a wonderful, like you say, entry point. Let’s just talk about this. Let’s really talk about it. Not just the fact that your body is going to die, and then what, but death in general. The fact that this whole planet is every second in a state of death and resurrection, death and resurrection, the whole time. You know, just as I said that was going on, maybe that was part of Christ’s message, that everything cycles, every single thing is transformed and get so used to it, so that we can walk into it with arms outstretched like, okay, it’s my time. It’s my time, bye, folks.
JL
There’s something that is a relief and possibly a release too, if you realize that you’re falling into that deep grief state. It will end, these waves. And so, you’re cresting on one wave. Or you might say, you’re falling into a black hole. But then you get out of it. It’s like it isn’t. It doesn’t last forever. I mean, grief is a journey. I don’t I think grief is something that shifts and changes and all of that. But in terms of those really extreme experiences of the early loss, it’s like you can’t say to someone, “Oh, get over it,” or, “It’ll end.” Because then you just want to say, “Well, you know, ‘Buzz off.’” But still, there’s something about knowing that cycles are part of life, right?
OB
Yeah, I think that’s a big part of it. But I also think it’s having the courage to feel it. Even if it doesn’t end, just because it’s available to us to feel, because we are human beings. Now, that takes a lot more courage. It’s easy to feel something when you kind of know it’s going to end. But what if the end may be a long way away? Would you still be willing to jump into it? I think that’s the courage that I’m looking for in myself, the courage to just feel it, just feel it. And I know this is true. I recently had a very, very traumatic experience. And fortunately, because there was shock and horror entwined into it, my brain could not even make a decision to not feel it. I was thrown there, which is actually a blessing in a way, because you haven’t got time to wriggle out of it or grab for something, a distraction. It was bigger than I was. So, it’s like being in a tsunami. And that was actually good in a way, because I was flung, and then you have to feel it. Now the next most important thing is when you’re flung into like a sudden death, which could include shock and horror and trauma and grief, everything, now it’s a tsunami. Now there’re so many feelings all swirling around, you’re in the washing machine of feelings. But trusting that space, not having a clue how to get out of it. Or when it will stop; you definitely don’t have your finger on the button to stop it. But your willingness to just be in it. I don’t know how to explain it, there is our ticket. I think that’s what sets us aside; that’s what is the ticket to success. Because no matter what happens, I am feeling it, 300%. So, there could be nothing worse than this. I met the worst of the worst of the worst of the worst. So, then there is only one way to go, which is a calming down and everything does finally level out. But you need support to do that. And the saddest thing in our society is when people are left alone in the washing machine of their feelings: trauma, shock, grief, horror. And a good example is a Vietnam vet, that when they’re still in it, without a proper support system. I could see how it would be very, very easy to just stay in the dark. And that is what’s missing in our society is the teaching of how to support another, because it’s not that difficult. And it can be taught, and I believe trauma, grief, like that can be, I don’t want to say resolved, but can get to a place of level, “I can breathe again,” within seven days. If the person is held. I do believe that. Of course, feelings are going to be there, but they’re going to be different feelings. They’re going to be calmed down, because the shock, the horror will have melted. So, now there could be just sadness, for sadness is much easier to feel than agony, shock and horror. But getting to sadness, it’s okay if somebody’s sad for five years, because sadness is just like a wave, a soft, gentle wave. And especially if it’s about the loss of somebody you really loved that sadness is like liquid love: you’re just feeling how much you loved them over and over. You’re not clinging to them, you’re not wishing they were back and not doing any of that, that which is very me. You’re just sad. And that too has a cleansing quality to it. It’s gentle, it’s kind, sadness. It lets us know that we have a heart and that we cared. It’s not depression, it’s not longing. It’s just sad.
JL
Well, how do we support someone? And this is something in your kit bag a bit, because you work a lot with families.
OB
Well, this is the role of the death doula, and this is what I teach. Mostly, it’s the crux of what it is to be a death doula or death midwife: it’s how to create that support for the one who’s dying because they are in grief, they’re letting go of everything they knew and loved. That’s sad. So, how to hold that person. And then these five other family members who are in the bedroom, they too, are moving through that. And how to hold it is a much bigger subject than we can perhaps cover here, because there’re lots of elements that need to be put in place to really create a container. That’s what I talk about, creating the container where one who is dying, or one who is losing one who is dying, can safely be held, so that they can feel all of these feelings to the nth degree and know that they’re safe. They might not feel good, might feel horrible, but that’s okay. It’s just a feeling. They’re safe in that feeling. And that’s what I felt. My girlfriends came around me and they created a container of safety. Because they couldn’t touch me, they couldn’t reach me, I was so far into my trauma and shock and horror. It was a very personal thing, I had to just feel it. And they intuitively knew that, so just were there. But nobody was trying to fix me, nobody was trying to make it nice. Nobody was trying to make me more comfortable. They could tell that that would be almost blasphemous to where I was in my horror and pain. And they had the wherewithal and the intuitive knowing to just be present. And that’s really all we need is for somebody to have the courage to be present and witness it. Without trying to fix it, make it better, be comfortable. That sort of puts a tarpaulin over what we’re feeling and so much is nauseating. I know that when I die, of course, I don’t necessarily want to, I don’t want to be in chronic pain, but just enough to take the edge off. Aside from that, if I’m flailing and pushing the covers off, let me lay there naked. You know, don’t, don’t, don’t try to make everything better. This is – how can it be better? We can’t make dying better.
JL
Everybody dies differently, don’t they?
OB
Yes. Yes. It’s another opportunity to fall in love with humanity when you look at how extraordinary we all are. We are just so unique and delicious and fascinating. I’m just in awe. When you meet somebody who’s dying and they’re at their most vulnerable, they’re at their most open. So, you can go right into the room, and you can actually touch their heart. The preciousness of their individual nature is something to behold. And they die. How they live, they die. It’s very hard to let go of those characteristics, traits, you know, in the last few weeks of life.
JL
Do you think that there’s also, though, an opportunity? We’re talking beyond curing here. Obviously, we’re dying, but for healing?
OB
Oh, it is! Yes! Absolutely, on every level: for the person who’s leaving and everyone in the room, too, this is a healing space. It’s interesting that I was trained as a minister of healing. So, hands on healing was what I was studying. And I had a healing practice in the 80s. And most of my clients had AIDS. So, they were dying. And I was supposed to be a healer. I realized that’s not a term I want to use anymore. Here, they all were dying. But that healing opportunity, there, at that deathbed in society, with those families, was astounding. Yeah, I feel that every time. That is healing, thinking about death is healing. Teaching it, reading about it. Death is my guru. She’s teaching me how to live.
JL
I often think about this: what does it mean to be a woman? And I think some of the great goddesses and world religions are both the givers of life and the sentencers of death. Just this idea that life comes into this world also means instantly, you take your first breath, and it means you will have a last breath. And there’s something huge about that.
OB
Yes, the portal is an in and out. That’s why I chose the Vesica Pisces as my symbol, the two circles that overlap. And that, that sacred space in the middle, which is sometimes known as the Yoni, it actually is called the fish bladder, which was the symbol of Christianity. Because it’s holy ground. It’s where this world and the next overlap. That Yoni space where we come in, and we go out, through woman, which is why the term midwife I think, is very appropriate for both, because midwife means, “with woman,” and it really should be for both birth and death. It’s with woman because, perhaps, and I know this is changing in our culture now, but a woman is able to stand open with all of her feelings available to her and bear witness. Because she knows what it is to open up so huge that you feel like you’re gonna die. And yet something is birthed through you. Like the opposite things happen at the same time during birth. Think death of who we think we are, which is I can’t do this. There’s no way my body is going to open up this much, to, “Oh, my God, look what happened. It was like a miracle. This thing came out.” And it’s the same with death. You see the person there, but it’s in reverse there. I can’t do this. And this hurts. And this, “you’ve got this, you got this,” and any minute now they’re going to be ejected, the awareness of who they are suddenly, into another reality.” They got that we just can’t have that conversation. Sadly, we can’t say, “Yeah, you did it.” I do, because I talk to the space in the room, because just looking at their body after that. But I wish more people could know it, feel it. Really. I wouldn’t say inhale it. But that’s all it is, the other end.
JL
Well, you teach into the grave. And it’s some of that in that teaching.
OB
Yes, I do touch on that. I call it enter the grave, because the grave is that place of transformation. The grave is the womb, that dark, moist place where we think nothing’s happening. And yet, something mysterious is growing. And the grave is the same. The tomb in the womb, that’s why they call it that, but we knew intuitively, or somebody did. These were the bookends of life, the womb and the tomb. Yeah, that’s why I called it that, because they are the same, both the womb and the tomb are the two places of transformation.
JL
Do you find that people who come, certainly into a class like that, because they’re being called into working with people at end of life? Or is it because they’re just curious?
OB
All kinds of reasons. Some people are really moved because they help their own parent die. And they knew that it was suddenly something they wanted to learn more about, or they wanted to help others die in that way. They’re dying themselves, and they want to make sure that they can learn about it, as much as possible, to do it. Well, it’s amazing that 20-year-olds and eight-year-olds are in the class from all walks of life, and now from all over the world because of Zoom, which is even better.
JL
That is really wonderful. I know that early on in starting the When You Die project, I got this wonderful email from a woman who has terminal cancer. And she was saying that there are so many resources for families and support people that she said, “Where do I find resources to help me? Because I’m dying?” And I didn’t know. I was actually dumbfounded in a way, because she was 100% correct, right? There’re lots of beautiful books about grieving and loss and end-of-life stories, but not a lot of memoirs of people as they’re dying. Or really, where’s the owner’s manual on this?
OB
I agree. You know, there’s that book, What to Expect When You’re Expecting. I think there should be one, What to Expect When You’re Dying. Maybe I should write that one. Right. It’s not that there isn’t enough, the fact that she was aware to ask for it. But that is when the person reaches out, they can reach out to a doula now, people who have done trainings, and they can have these long conversations together. That’s the goal here, I think, of the funeral movement. And the death doula movement is to open up the conversations more deeply.
JL
This might be a good opportunity here to help people understand some of these different terms of death: doula, midwife, death-midwife, end-of-life guide. You know, there’s a lot of terminology even around conscious dying and death positive. I think it’s confusing for a lot of people.
OB
Well, I think all of those terms are just basically a companion to the dying. Somebody who’s dying can reach out to somebody who has more awareness, perhaps, and can guide them through the emotional pieces of when they’re on their death journey. So, whether it’s solo midwife (I stay with death midwife, but only because I came in there to the work as a home funeral guide). So, my expertise with hundreds and hundreds of families is the after-death care of the body. And the power of the home funeral, when you lay a body at home on dry ice, the potential for healing for the whole community is so rich and so ripe. That’s where I first had my big awareness of, “Oh my gosh, everybody should do this!” It was less about how to prepare for a conscious dying. That come’s later. But because the after-death care was my piece, and because my teacher was a death midwife, and she midwifed the family through those last three days after the person had died, I’m still using that. I think death midwifery is the umbrella. And that would include the CNA (Certified Nursing Assistant), the beautiful nurse who does the bathing and helps the lady in the shower. Then there’s the hospice, everyone involved in the hospice, the chaplains, and it would include the death doula, who’s more of a guide through the process, helping the person put their things in order. It would include the home funeral guide, somebody who’s willing to come in and help that family prepare the body and put it on dry ice. And it would include the funeral director. It might include the cemetery personnel, because we’re all midwifing death, both for the family and for the culture. So, I think death midwifery is the umbrella organization, if you will, and then all these other people, which can include the funeral celebrant, and maybe even though we don’t do embalming, but those people who do that in the autopsy, that’s also a piece of midwifing death. They’re trying to find the cause of the death. They belong in there too.
JL
If you’re in a hospital, and there’s an emergency, you’ve got that curing team; they come in, and they know how to work with the plumbing and try to save a life. But then when you’re no longer trying to save a life, you’re describing our team, right? Like, this is our next team. And it isn’t the same. And it’s beautiful that there are so many people that can help families and help the person who’s passing.
OB
Yes. And when you say that, my vision is for every hospital to have a death midwife. And that death midwife has this whole slew of resources that she calls upon when a family comes to her, whether it’s a car accident or suicide (each one might be a different specialty), to be able to then say to the family, I think it’s time for a death doula. And this person is a wonderful death doula, and she’ll go home with you and support you through this journey. Definitely choose this. There’s a list of hospices. This is what hospice is. And the death midwife is sitting there. She has all of these resources available to her, and she knows everything about everything. Wouldn’t it be great for every hospital, to have that person?
JL
100% I think it would be wonderful. And I think that the medical people would be so relieved.
OB
And there’s a birthing room, and there should be a dining room which is beautifully equipped where at least you know, 10 people can crowd into there and sit on really comfortable surroundings, with beautiful art on the wall, lovely music and a huge thing above the bed, which plays landscapes and seascapes. And it could be just phenomenal. And it doesn’t need to be a huge deal. Because it’s not life and death anymore, into death and life. So, there’s no machinery, there’s nothing in here but maybe the stethoscope to just call time and death would be so beautiful.
JL
I love this vision. I really do. I think it’s beautiful. I think that we probably should end on this point, which is hard because I love talking to you. And there are so many things that we could pursue right now. So maybe, Olivia, we do it again in six months.
OB
Yes, yes, I would love to do that. I’d love to encourage people to sign up for classes, if they’re interested in any aspect of this. Sacredcrossings.com is how they can find out about my classes. They’re in person online now. And I’m wanting to do more retreats. And I just love talking about it. Because death has been so helpful to me.
JL
Well, we will have your website link on our site. I think it’s already there. But we’ll put it in the context of the podcast. Also, people can find you on YouTube. You have a lot of videos on YouTube as well as on your site. But there’re a lot of resources on your site as well. So, you are a real gem in the world of end of life, and you have done an enormous service training another generation, many generations, and being there for so many people, and being an example of what real compassionate care is. So, thank you so much for that. I really appreciate it.
OB
Thank you, Johanna. I truly appreciate what you’re doing, because I know making films and putting them out there is a whole other animal and takes a lot of determination and courage. Stick with it. You’ve done that. So, thank you for that. Thank you. I look forward to talking to you again.
JL
I look forward to that.
For more information on Olivia and her work go to sacredcrossings.com
